Never heard of the house edge being referred to as return to player.

There are a couple things you need to think about when gambling.

House edge is first. Blackjack can have a house edge ranging from about .18% for a really ideal game to well over 2% for the worst games. Roulette has a house edge over 5% for a "normal" game.

For a recreational player with a couple hundred bucks to play with, variance rules the day. To hit just the house edge, you need a bankroll large enough to absorb big losses without busting out. If you look at the Nevada gambling reports, the actual hold from blackjack is closer to 15%. There's a simple reason for this, if you buy in a $5 game with $100, you have only 20 bets in the bank, so to speak, not counting doubles, splits, etc., so it's very easy to walk away with nothing, even if you're playing a game with a low house edge.

The same goes with slot machines and video poker. The bigger the jackpot, the higher the variance, since a portion of every bet goes to the jackpot. When you see that full pay Jacks or Better has a 99.54% return, remember that includes hitting a royal flush for 4000 coins, and this is the video poker game with the lowest variance in the casino. When you get games like Double Double Bonus, where you can hit 2000 coins for the right four of a kind, but lose return on common hands, the variance is significantly higher.

High variance can also mean you walk away a big winner. You can walk up to a roulette table, put $100 on 17 and walk away with $3500 in your pocket, but that's unlikely.

Thank you both for surprisingly good answers! Yes, "variance" is the foundation of the gaming industry. It's what makes gambling 'fun' (in spite of being a terrible 'investment').

"RTP" isn't the House Edge, it's kinda the opposite. That is, RTP + House Edge = Total Bets.

Is "Coin In" only used for slot machines? I know folks can get 'credit' for their Blackjack play but I assume Bj credit is calculated VERY differently. Thanks to your answers/links, I see that (ignoring variance and assuming indefinite gambling with unlimited finds, Lol) with House Advantages of about 1% vs about 25%, slots are theoretically 25x more 'expensive' to enjoy than Blackjack is.

Also, thanks to your insights, I see that the roughly $300 perks folks report for a $10k "coin in" is costing them roughly $3k. Of course I'll be the 1st to admit there is something foolishly wonderful about 'perks'! $300 earned feels like $1k gained!

Here's the report from the Nevada Gaming Commission. I don't know why your other post was closed but there were some answers over there as well.

https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=14325

“I also heard penny slots give worse odds than more expensive slots.”

Realize that “ penny slots” might be based on one cent, but some of the maximum bets are more than Quarter or Dollar slots. There are many 1 cent denomination machines with $3 and $4 max bets, some with $6 max bets.

The actual house edge on the slot machines are much less than 25%. Depending on the denomination, figure in the 8-12% range.

And as you can see, the actual win % for the house is a lot higher than the theoretical "house edge!"

Source for the 8-12% comment in post #6:

https://www.bestuscasinos.org/blog/how-much-do-vegas-slots-play/

>Is "Coin In" only used for slot machines?

Pretty much all the machine games: slots, VP, Keno, etc.

>I assume Bj credit is calculated VERY differently

Table game players are "rated" by average bet and time played (as a proxy for number of hands played - the casino knows very well how many hands per hour are expected from each game). Typically you'll have to be playing $25 a hand to be rated at all. The system is somewhat less than 100% accurate as you might expect.

In all cases "comps" are calculated as a percentage of a player's theoretical loss (often termed "theo"). The number is independent of whether a player wins or loses. It is simply Total $ Wagered * House Edge for each game played. Obviously a slot player will get more in comps than a BJ or Video Poker player for the same amount wagered. The Wizard of Vegas website has a large number of hotel/casino reviews (some rather dated), many of which detail the reviewer's play and corresponding comps. Here's an oldie for 4 Queens: https://wizardofvegas.com/hotels/four-queens/ to give you an idea of how table game ratings operate.

1. RTP is proprietary information, closely guarded by manufacturers and casinos alike. In addition, it's generally based on millions of spins, so even if a slot is set to hold only 5% (a loose setting), results vary widely. For example, if you play a volatile machine that pays infrequently (like 100 Times Pay), you might lose a lot more than 5% with $10k of action (total bets placed). But if you low bet a machine that pays frequently and doesn't have a big top jackpot, you might find yourself pretty close to the RTP after $10k. But still, you won't know the RTP and your individual results are unlikely to be a reliable indicator of it's value.

Conversely, if a volatile machine pays a lot early in its life, it might take a lot of action before it makes money for the casino. Most casinos are very careful to limit their exposure to negative bankroll swings by not stocking their floors with machines which can cause them to have a losing period in the short run. That's why you don't see games like Buffalo Gold in $1 denominations, as a few big hits could be too much for a casino's comfort -- especially those that are smaller and/or independently owned. FWIW, life-changing area-wide progressive jackpots, as found on WoF, Mega$, etc, are paid out of funds managed by the manufacturers of the machines, not the casinos.

2. "... over the long run you can expect to win back 97 cents out of every $1 you bet. In other words, one would bet $10,000 before losing $300."

With perfect basic strategy, real Blackjack (paying 3-2 for naturals, not 6-5) usually holds between 0.5% and 0.8% of money wagered for the casino. There exist games with rules that pay better or worse than that, but in general, that's what you can expect. Unless you can find a casino that takes bets as low as $0.10, you will need to bet much more than $10k to reach the long run. You are very likely to be behind by $300 or more before reaching $10,000 of action, even if the house edge is as low as 0.2%, as blackjack often comes with big swings up and down.

3. The TA Las Vegas travel forum is not a great place to ask gambling questions! You should google around for gambling forums. :-)

Good luck!

Whereas RTP for slots is proprietary information, the actual RTP for blackjack can be readily calculated using the chart found here...

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/

It still takes the long run to get there, but at least you know what to expect if you play perfect basic strategy (or better).